I think you’re right about the demarcating lines, with the identification of the 4th generation being especially insightful.
To add on to what you were saying: I think the 5th generation will be balkanized. My read of Hasbro’s financials shows a company that’s stuck. It also doesn’t seem to me that they know exactly what to do with their subsidiaries and WotC’s top-level turnover suggests a culture in crisis.
This might be bad for individual people in the industry, but I think the hobbyists on the ground will flourish in certain respects. Who knows for sure though?
Shadowdark, Old School Essentials, and Mothership spring to mind. OSE is a good example of fifth generation design. The rules are 40+ years old, but the critical piece is the presentation. OSE's adventures are especially good examples of fifth gen design.
I think you’re right, there is so much out there right now that happened because of either the OLG, or people’s apprehension of how WotC has treated Dungeons & Dragons.
I can see a bunch of different games emerge from what’s going on in the next five to ten years.
For what it's worth, I'd suggest that the best product of the 5e era was 'Dungeons of Drakenheim'. That had the parts of 5e that players love, like back stories and customisation, but also the 'sandbox' of the OSR, with factions, a city, a reason to be there, and overarching plots.
Really interesting take!! I think an assumption that you are making but do not say is that you are talking about RPG products, not how RPGs are played (which is impossible to categorize).
I agree that there is a new (5th, as you say) generation of products that leaves all prior generations in the dust as far as usability. The D&D 2024 rules were definitely 4th generation products, the gap in usability between those and OSE, Shadowdark, or BREAK! is hard to overstate.
But forget rulebooks, I will never buy an adventure where I have to flip back and forth ever again. Stonehell was so far ahead of its time!
Man… I’ve been in the fifth generation since 2001… lmao. 🤣
In all seriousness, I’m excited about the future of the hobby. Sure, it may lead to popular names falling to the shadow of corporate mishandling, but it’s a sacrifice that may need to be made for our hobby to continue to grow, thrive, and continue into the next few generations.
I look forward to the new games that come out. Even while I still run my games with rules that were published in the ‘70s. 😂
Yeah... Character generation focus is a 4th generation 2000s thing!
Certainly not the focus of AD&D 2e's Complete series of:
Book of Elves
Book of Humanoids
Fighter's Handbook
Thief's Handbook
Wizard's Handbook
Psionics Handbook
Priest's Handbook
Book of Necromancers
Bard's Handbook
Paladin's Handbook
Barbarian's Handbook
Druid's Handbook
Ninja's Handbook
Book of Dwarves
Book of Gnomes and Halflings
Book of Villains
It really wasn't until 2000 that we got the focus on character generation, or the idea of "Expansions" full of content to purchase... Right?
I get what you're going for, here, Mike, but a lot of this stuff has kinda always been a part of D&D rather than a specific advent of a specific 'Generation'.
“If the dungeon crawl you’re running presents rooms in bullet points and puts map insets on each page spread, it’s a fifth generation design.”
…My brain instantly flashed images of spreads from “Waking of Willowby Hall”. An absolute joy to run as a GM.
I think it’s not just GM *ease* but GM *joy*. Part of the appeal of the OSR, or games with lots of randomization at the table, or storytelling games doling out player authority is that GMs get to be joyfully surprised.
This is different from 4th gen design where GM surprise can br seen as a failure, or at least a problem to be solved for.
Thank you for coming out and saying so! You hit upon what really irked me so much with 5e despite my enduring love for the game: GMing it is a nightmare! And the DM’s guide and other game guides know it, because any time complex rules threaten to make the players’ special character roleplay grind to a halt, the books say “DMs should adjust accordingly.” CR is wonky? DMs should adjust on the fly. Players are stomping encounters? DMs adjust. Players are dying, bored, or actively rebelling? DMs adjust. So much encounter work from AC to attack modifiers to turn adjudication to anything else, players are given innumerable options and DMs are tasked with providing bespoke wish fulfillment fantasies. Just so much work for DMs to do.
I think they were early examples of fifth generation design. PBTA does a lot to focus a game and make a GM's life easier, while FATE has very light characters and focuses on GM improv and creativity. Both are strong reactions to the fourth gen's approach.
Interesting read. I think a lot of this stuff was going on in the OSR before hand, but the OGL accelerated everything.
That and 5e is very taxing on the GM.
I wonder if there is a 'midpoint' between 5e and OSR? So not as minnimalist as Old School Essentials, but not as complex as 5e. Maybe subclasses with some ability at level 3? Maybe a uniform skill system like 5e has, but not as demanding?
Very interesting outline here. I would like to see a more in depth analysis of the 2nd-4th generation shifts and dates. I am not completely sold on the facts and I am also dubious of the 2004 WoW effect.
I think you’re right about the demarcating lines, with the identification of the 4th generation being especially insightful.
To add on to what you were saying: I think the 5th generation will be balkanized. My read of Hasbro’s financials shows a company that’s stuck. It also doesn’t seem to me that they know exactly what to do with their subsidiaries and WotC’s top-level turnover suggests a culture in crisis.
This might be bad for individual people in the industry, but I think the hobbyists on the ground will flourish in certain respects. Who knows for sure though?
https://www.pcgamer.com/games/rpg/d-and-d-continues-to-shed-talent-to-other-ttrpgs-as-its-former-vp-of-franchise-and-product-joins-vampire-the-masquerade-creator-white-wolf/
What a timely article.
This kind of commentary makes my life as a gamer and DMs Guild author a lot easier.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts, Mike.
What are a couple of examples of 5th generation TTRPG design?
Shadowdark, Old School Essentials, and Mothership spring to mind. OSE is a good example of fifth generation design. The rules are 40+ years old, but the critical piece is the presentation. OSE's adventures are especially good examples of fifth gen design.
Hey Mike.
I think you’re right, there is so much out there right now that happened because of either the OLG, or people’s apprehension of how WotC has treated Dungeons & Dragons.
I can see a bunch of different games emerge from what’s going on in the next five to ten years.
Anyways, welcome to Substack!
For what it's worth, I'd suggest that the best product of the 5e era was 'Dungeons of Drakenheim'. That had the parts of 5e that players love, like back stories and customisation, but also the 'sandbox' of the OSR, with factions, a city, a reason to be there, and overarching plots.
Great achievement.
Really interesting take!! I think an assumption that you are making but do not say is that you are talking about RPG products, not how RPGs are played (which is impossible to categorize).
I agree that there is a new (5th, as you say) generation of products that leaves all prior generations in the dust as far as usability. The D&D 2024 rules were definitely 4th generation products, the gap in usability between those and OSE, Shadowdark, or BREAK! is hard to overstate.
But forget rulebooks, I will never buy an adventure where I have to flip back and forth ever again. Stonehell was so far ahead of its time!
Man… I’ve been in the fifth generation since 2001… lmao. 🤣
In all seriousness, I’m excited about the future of the hobby. Sure, it may lead to popular names falling to the shadow of corporate mishandling, but it’s a sacrifice that may need to be made for our hobby to continue to grow, thrive, and continue into the next few generations.
I look forward to the new games that come out. Even while I still run my games with rules that were published in the ‘70s. 😂
Yeah... Character generation focus is a 4th generation 2000s thing!
Certainly not the focus of AD&D 2e's Complete series of:
Book of Elves
Book of Humanoids
Fighter's Handbook
Thief's Handbook
Wizard's Handbook
Psionics Handbook
Priest's Handbook
Book of Necromancers
Bard's Handbook
Paladin's Handbook
Barbarian's Handbook
Druid's Handbook
Ninja's Handbook
Book of Dwarves
Book of Gnomes and Halflings
Book of Villains
It really wasn't until 2000 that we got the focus on character generation, or the idea of "Expansions" full of content to purchase... Right?
I get what you're going for, here, Mike, but a lot of this stuff has kinda always been a part of D&D rather than a specific advent of a specific 'Generation'.
“If the dungeon crawl you’re running presents rooms in bullet points and puts map insets on each page spread, it’s a fifth generation design.”
…My brain instantly flashed images of spreads from “Waking of Willowby Hall”. An absolute joy to run as a GM.
I think it’s not just GM *ease* but GM *joy*. Part of the appeal of the OSR, or games with lots of randomization at the table, or storytelling games doling out player authority is that GMs get to be joyfully surprised.
This is different from 4th gen design where GM surprise can br seen as a failure, or at least a problem to be solved for.
Thank you for coming out and saying so! You hit upon what really irked me so much with 5e despite my enduring love for the game: GMing it is a nightmare! And the DM’s guide and other game guides know it, because any time complex rules threaten to make the players’ special character roleplay grind to a halt, the books say “DMs should adjust accordingly.” CR is wonky? DMs should adjust on the fly. Players are stomping encounters? DMs adjust. Players are dying, bored, or actively rebelling? DMs adjust. So much encounter work from AC to attack modifiers to turn adjudication to anything else, players are given innumerable options and DMs are tasked with providing bespoke wish fulfillment fantasies. Just so much work for DMs to do.
Where do things like Pbta and Fate fit into this ?
I think they were early examples of fifth generation design. PBTA does a lot to focus a game and make a GM's life easier, while FATE has very light characters and focuses on GM improv and creativity. Both are strong reactions to the fourth gen's approach.
Interesting read. I think a lot of this stuff was going on in the OSR before hand, but the OGL accelerated everything.
That and 5e is very taxing on the GM.
I wonder if there is a 'midpoint' between 5e and OSR? So not as minnimalist as Old School Essentials, but not as complex as 5e. Maybe subclasses with some ability at level 3? Maybe a uniform skill system like 5e has, but not as demanding?
Very interesting outline here. I would like to see a more in depth analysis of the 2nd-4th generation shifts and dates. I am not completely sold on the facts and I am also dubious of the 2004 WoW effect.
Open to links!